Tin Roof Alley Poets

Social Cafe - Alley Cats Personal Boards => Alley Cats Personal Boards => A-Friends Cafe => Topic started by: noirjente on May 30, 2010, 04:06 PM

Title: Lamentation for Arizona
Post by: noirjente on May 30, 2010, 04:06 PM
There is no room for a King,
no quarter in a dry land.
New Bethlehem is barren;
no mangers, inns or stables.

                                                   (" . . .give US this day . . .but not him")

Who adores a Prince of Peace?
certainly not the natives-
their god is for them only,
and freedom lives on postcards.

                                                    ("Your will be done . . .if it's ours")

Forget pharoahs; they have laws!
Road rage rules justify hate.
They won't let my people go,
though they claim to want us gone.

                                                    (Forgive not our trespasses)

They queen our young from our lore,
promoting history's lies.
Truth would foster self-respect,
and proud folks conquer bondage . . .

                                                     (Deliver us from evil)

The emperor is naked;
yet, some fools laud the fashion!
Lord, free them from ignorance,
that all our chains be lifted.

                                                      (Now and forever, Amen)
 
Title: Re: Lamentation for Arizona
Post by: Halo on May 30, 2010, 10:15 PM
It seems to me that both Jew and Gentile are under the same bondage, all inclusive. 
Your words cover the situation of the whole earth.

Excellent write, noirjente.
Title: Re: Lamentation for Arizona
Post by: Bill on June 02, 2010, 02:57 PM
noirjente,

I had to smile when I read the title. 

After reading the body of the work, I was still smiling.  A quote came to mind.  The phrase from the song in "Evita," came to mind.  Paraphrased, "Don't weep for me, noirjente."

I live in Arizona, and I'm probably going to attend the Diamondbacks baseball game this Saturday.

Regards,
Bill

Title: Re: Lamentation for Arizona
Post by: noirjente on June 03, 2010, 11:00 PM
Halo and Bill, thank you both for taking the time to read the piece.

Halo. . .I concur that this state of affairs is repeated too often the world over. Both Jew and Gentile must take care not to become the thing they despise.

Bill . . .ironic choice of music given the Perons were accused of fascism and their Argentina was a popular haven for Nazi's. Enjoy the game.
Title: Re: Lamentation for Arizona
Post by: Bill on June 04, 2010, 02:09 PM
noirjente,

Though it was ad hominemally speaking, touche'.  I guess I'm going to have to start a protest movement against Madonna to atone for my ill-conceived irony.

Now that I've read through the piece a couple more times, the something that was whirling about in my mind suddenly stood still long enough for me to see it. It is interesting to note how often Jesus (with direct or indirect references) is used as the poster child for championing the rights of the politically oppressed.  He was a man the people would have made king, one they would have followed, even at the sacrifice of their own lives, in throwing off an oppressive regime. Yet, he evaded a popular uprising in his name, and when questioned about paying taxes to that regime said, "Render unto Caeser the things that are Caeser's..."  He did not engage in civil disobediance, nor did he encourage it. The record of his arrest underscores that.  According to one of his promoters, his focus was on taking away (in the sense of the punishment for) the sins of the world.  And Paul, arguably the greatest advocate for Christ, also advocated submission to the governing authorities.  In that respect, your poem's heavy use of biblical references is ironic.

One other matter.  I am attracted to the line,  "They queen our young from our lore," but I'm not sure how to understand that line.  "queen" is in the position of the main verb, but I'm not sure how to interpret its use that way.  Any help you are willing to give would be appreciated.

Well, that's the end of my annual foray into the world of online political and social commentary.  I'm going back to my cave now to continue to decorate its walls with childish scrawls and indecipherable images, while mumbling incoherantly to no one about nothing.

As always, I encourage you to keep writing.
Title: Re: Lamentation for Arizona
Post by: noirjente on June 04, 2010, 04:07 PM
I have been smiling as well . . .Bill, I knew I could count on you to bring something novel.

Ad hominem? Moi? Let's see . . .I write a piece which alludes to facism taking root in the great state of Arizona to which you reply by stating it reminded you of a song from a musical whose subject matter is . . .an accused facist. And I did take care to say accused as there are arguments to the contrary (what is not in question is that Nazis took refuge there- however some also took refuge in other places, including our great nation so maybe your point is well made). Nothing incongruent there that I can see, perhaps you can explain it to me. Notwithstanding my confusion, should you actually go through with the anti-Madonna protest, count me in as this should have been done a long time ago on general principle alone.

As to the biblical references, perhaps there is irony. But, isn't that why one beseeches a higher power in the first place? To intervene divinely where human beings should or could not? And, pointing out how a law threatens our fundamental way of life is not mere "civil disobedience"; it is an obligation of a free people who are determined to remain that way. Besides, my allusions here to Dr. King and Jesus- princes of peace- are not as much as champions of the oppressed, but as reminders of how people are straying farther and farther from what they taught us.   

Here's help for understanding the line "They queen our young . . ." Think pawns reaching the 8th rank, not sovereigns. I hope it helps.

Again, I am glad you took time to read the piece and know that I always welcome what you have to say (even if it may not jibe well with what I believe).   
Title: Re: Lamentation for Arizona
Post by: Bill on June 04, 2010, 05:23 PM
noirjente.

Yeah, you're probably right.  Overly sensitive / defensive response.  Necessary occupational hazard reflected in personal matters.  I'll go wash off my keyboard with a soft cloth.

I kinda sorta figured "queen" was a chess move reference, 'cause it is the only arena where that noun is usually used as a verb, and your spelling is on the dime any of the times I've read your stuff.  On the other hand, I saw a possibility for, "queer"  (though 'n' and 'r' are distant from each other on the keyboard) and wondered if you were waxing anachronistic in usage.  But I needed confirmation. 

Thanks.  Well, back to the cave.

Regards,
Bill
Title: Re: Lamentation for Arizona
Post by: A-FRIEND on June 05, 2010, 12:54 AM
The more I read this noirjente, the more it defines certain factions that are down right scary in theses times.
The racist Az law, the teabaggers, Rand Paul, right wing hate radio, just on and on. Everyone grants themselves the privileges you describe so eloquently and with ease of tounge and purpose wax on about why others don't deserve the same things.
Title: Re: Lamentation for Arizona
Post by: noirjente on June 05, 2010, 05:21 PM
I agree, A-FRIEND, these are fast becoming scary times. I have to say again that I agree with Halo- what I wrote can be applied to many more situations in the world than just Arizona. But, the piece was about Arizona and I feel many more Americans should be alarmed at what is going on there. What most folks don't realize (or just refuse to see) is that S.B.1070 paves the way for anyone to be detained for little or no reason. After all, just what does an illegal immigrant look like? There are folks here illegally from every corner of the earth and this law is just abuse waiting to happen.
Title: Re: Lamentation for Arizona
Post by: Bill on June 06, 2010, 10:09 PM
noirjente, A-friend,

I do not wish to enter into a debate regarding SB 1070.  It is what it is, and people will form their opinions about it, endless debates will rage on.

So, the only question I ever ask anyone is this:  Have you done the following.
1.)  Have you read the law in its entirety, as currently revised?  The emphasis in that question is on you reading the law, not reading excerpts from it, not merely reacting to how others have reacted to it. 
2.)  After reading the law, have you compared it to existing federal statutes which, if enforced, would require the same actions, and which, had they been enforced would have negated the need to write such a law.
3.)  Have you had a constitutional lawyer review it or have you read a review by a lawyer who has studied its constitutionality or lack thereof?
4.)  Have you asked Hispanics who are legal citizens of this state, people who by right of birth or by right of study and oath, legally live and work in the state, interact more closely with the illegal immigrant population of the state than any other ethnic group, who are impacted as directly or indirectly by the law, or more so, as any of Arizona's other citizens, whether they agree with the law?

That's it.  That's all I ask.  If you have done those things, and you still hold it to be something new in the world, that is, a state law which countermands existing federal statutes and negates constitutional rights of United States citizens, well and good.  Rant on against it.  That is your right as a citizen.

My right is to stop writing about it.  And with this post, I shall. 

Regards,
Bill

Ps.  Back to my cave.  The bats need feeding.

Title: Re: Lamentation for Arizona
Post by: noirjente on June 07, 2010, 01:25 AM
Well stated, Bill. These are indeed questions that need to be asked, as I completely agree with you on this one aspect; one should be no more tolerant of knee jerk reactions from the bill's detractors as one is being from it's supporters.

I think "knee jerk" is an apt term, as I am among those who believe that certain parties seized upon a tragic murder to railroad through an unnecessary edict that potentially gives police state powers to law enforcement (and whoever is calling the shots above law enforcement).

Yes, I have read SB 1070 and if one cannot see the inequities in it, then there is truly no framework for dialogue- debate would most cetainly be a moot exercise. Just because its constitutionality has not yet been challenged doesn't mean it is consistent with federal law. Federal statutes can be infringed upon by restricting their implementation, as we saw in the case of Jim Crow laws in this country's past; but they also can be encroached upon by an unlawful expansion of interpretation, as we are seeing in Arizona. This law legitimizes racial profiling and/or gives police the right to detain anyone they choose to as long as they can justify stopping them in the first place (and it takes a naivete I havent had since grade school to allow that cops will not ever stop someone under some false pretense). Maybe I am wrong, but from where I sit I've not yet encountered the policeman who couldn't come up with some "perfectly legal" reason to stop anyone he or she saw fit. For example, I've been detained by police who told me that I was stopped because I was wearing the same color shirt as a suspect- even when not much else matched. So the strongest argument supporters of SB 1070 have- that it wont be profiling because it only comes into play after some other violation has already been committed- is just unrealistic chin music. 

As to what Hispanics think of the law, I need to know which ones you've been conversing with, Bill. I have yet to see or meet any latino- mexican or otherwise- who doesnt have at least some small problem with this law. If you can connect me with some who feel otherwise or have a link to an organization that is Hispanic and supports SB 1070, I'd be glad to hear their views on the subject. . .honestly.

Also, what is most confusing about support for SB 1070 is the contention that it is somehow the same as existing federal statutes which are not being enforced. If that is the case, why write a new law? Why not just marshall state efforts to implement more rigorous application of what is already on the books?

Last, but not least, one thing about this law that is not being talked about much is the folks behind it. As I alluded to earlier, there was a definite agenda behind this law and in order to discern what that agenda is one need only look at its author (Kris Kobach) and at its main supporter in the Arizona legislature (Russell Pearce). One should also research FAIR, the organization most intimately involved. Why is FAIR important? Perhaps because the Southern Poverty Law Center (the same orginization which fought and greatly harmed the Ku Klux Klan, via both criminal justice and civil lawsuits) has designated FAIR as a hate group. These are the folks and organizations at the heart of SB 1070.

We should not be worried that Neo-Nazi sympathizers, racial supremists, and hate groups are the principle entities in the drafting of such sensitive legislation?

Rant ended . . . 
Title: Re: Lamentation for Arizona
Post by: A-FRIEND on June 07, 2010, 03:04 PM
Bill there is so much I could say, but I'll confine my comments to two points.
1) There is a problem with illegal immigration, but that does not justify addressing the problem with racist laws.

2) One needs go no further than this quote from you to make the point this is most definitely a racist law. No I'm not saying you are a racist, I'm saying those that support this law want to ignore what it really does.
Quote
Have you asked Hispanics who are legal citizens of this state, people who by right of birth or by right of study and oath, legally live and work in the state, interact more closely with the illegal immigrant population of the state than any other ethnic group, who are impacted as directly or indirectly by the law, or more so, as any of Arizona's other citizens, whether they agree with the law?

That is the entire summation of why this law is racist. It is directed at one single group of people. To further prove that point the same folks have now outlawed teaching about other races and are even going after Hispanic teachers.
Now I would ask a question. Are there white illegal immigrants? The answer is yes there are many. So why are Hispanics being single out. There is no need in anyone trying to say that's not the case because even in your quote you singled them out, and further more I've never talked to a single supporter of this law that didn't.
So what does an illegal immigrant look like? Here's what will happen. A car is stopped. One passenger is white, the other is Hispanic. Who do you think is going to be demanded of to produce papers? But guess what? The white person is an illegal  Irish immigrant. That's a true experience by the way.
I've never heard those supporting this law discuss the fact there are white illegals in this country. There is a reason for that. Need I say it?

Not one single person can make a legitimate claim this isn't a racist law and my hope is AZ is boycotted into oblivion if necessary.
Title: Re: Lamentation for Arizona
Post by: A-FRIEND on June 13, 2010, 05:18 PM
More from Russell Pearce and his racist antics in AZ.  So now he's introducing racist laws against American born children and flying in the face of the 14th amendmant. Read the article, then read the comments.
I challenge anyone to defend this. I defy anyone to tell me this is not racism at its best.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/time/20100612/us_time/08599199606400 (http://news.yahoo.com/s/time/20100612/us_time/08599199606400)
Title: Re: Lamentation for Arizona
Post by: elise on June 13, 2010, 09:48 PM
-tiptoes in to this obviously heated debate with my head ducked low-

I am here to learn. 

I attempted to read and comprehend the actual bill.  Good luck.  So I researched further.  I have a few points:

"Gov. Jan Brewer of Arizona signed the nations toughest bill on illegal immigration into law. Its aim is to identify, prosecute and deport illegal immigrants".   

Okay so we are against "racial profiling"of Muslims at airports...but we are NOT against "racial profiling" of Hispanics who are here to make a better life for their families.  Am I correct so far?

I agree with those who say that we would be like "Nazi Germany" if we THINK someone is illegal just by the color of their skin.  Authorites should not be able to stop and detain someone due to how they look.  (unless they LOOK like they have a bomb attached to them, or look like someone on a terrorist list).

But then...SOMETHING needs to be done to be sure LEGAL people aren't supporting ILLEGAL people.  Aren't there gentler ways to do it?  Ideas?  Thoughts?  Opinions?

This doesn't need to be "heated"...but educational.

Title: Re: Lamentation for Arizona
Post by: noirjente on June 16, 2010, 01:43 PM
I agree that this discussion should not be heated. But it is difficult when you know that this law is not merely about ending support of illegals by legal residents. And actually, who is supporting who? When you factor in the wealth created by their inexpensive labor the answer to that question is not as cut and dried as some would want it to be.

But my main problem with this law is on two levels and most are ignoring one of them. The law is racist and for that alone it should be repealed. But what must be realized is laws like this can be applied to anyone! I'll ask again . . .what does an illegal immigrant look like? We already have news stories from all over the country of folks being mistakenly held in jail or detained over unclear immigration status, so how is it going to be when this law goes into effect? And will it be used to arrest or detain someone the law is looking at in a completely different area but has no other "good" pretext? For example, as an Arizona detective, I wrongly think Elise may be the infamous "Sweet Tooth" woman serial killer (all of her victims are found covered in cotton candy), but I have nothing to pick her up on. Then, noting how she has some slavic features, I pick her up on SB 1070. I can detain her while I get warrants for her car and home, and the fact that I find her state issued ID in one of them is no problem as I send it to the lab to make sure it isnt a forgery.

The law can be used against anyone, not just illegal aliens from Mexico.

If they really wanted to stop immigration, here is a state law they could have passed.

1) Require that all social security numbers given by potential hires be run through the social security administration and/or the 3 credit bureaus or require valid state IDs that have been similarly vetted.

2) Punish businesses and individuals that hire illegals, not only by fines and license or permit suspensions and revocations, but by making those businesses and individuals who hire illegals legally liable for every penny-plus interest- of tax money or other public funds spent on the illegal and his (or her) dependants. This would include, among other things, money spent educating their children; emergency room visits that ultimately get charged off to the taxpayer; and (if applicable) welfare and food stamp payments made legally or illegally.

I think these two simple steps would stop illegal immigration in border states in its tracks. The people who come from Mexico illegally come because there are opportunities. Take away those opportunities and they will not come. If they know they must do things by the books in order to get at the opportunities, they will do that too. The vast majority of the people coming here are doing so to feed their families. Vilifying them is a mistake and will not stop the immigration as there are too many willing to take the risk. And SB 1070 gives "wrist slap" penalties to the businesses that are driving this immigration in the first place. As written, I see a lot of firms paying the small fines for the first offenses, then just simply closing shop only to reappear  under another license when the fines get steeper.                                                   
Title: Re: Lamentation for Arizona
Post by: Bill on June 16, 2010, 02:50 PM
noirjente,

I can't respond in a personal message format to the personal message you sent me, because the message flashed that your inbox is full and so unable to receive any more personal messages.

So, let me confirm that yes, the poem in question does look much better in its original form, without the spacing.  I do not have the time to review it to see if you made other improvements.

In respect to the comment written after the poem, well, I'm not into group think.  I play one on one.  Always have.  Always will.

Regards,
Bill
Title: Re: Lamentation for Arizona
Post by: noirjente on June 16, 2010, 03:14 PM
As I remember it, you said you were having trouble understanding the poem. The comment I made after the poem as originally penned was not about any "group think"; it was about the central premise of the poem and was offered to help increase your understanding of it. I am not here to tell you or anyone else what you must believe. But, if what I write makes some sense to you I only ask that you consider the position. That, I think, are how ideas are exchanged. 
Title: Re: Lamentation for Arizona
Post by: A-FRIEND on June 18, 2010, 11:00 PM
Quote
But then...SOMETHING needs to be done to be sure LEGAL people aren't supporting ILLEGAL people.  Aren't there gentler ways to do it?  Ideas?  Thoughts?  Opinions?

This doesn't need to be "heated"...but educational

Elise you are indeed a kind soul. Following your lead, lets make this just that...a teachable moment. I deliberately delayed my response to make a point. Before I do that, I need to get an answer to one question. Would you say this entire formerly Splash and now Tin Roof Alley community, reflects the general demographics of American communities at large?


**Note to norijente... I don't want to appear to be hijacking your topic. If there's any hint of impropriety please let me know.
Title: Re: Lamentation for Arizona
Post by: noirjente on June 19, 2010, 01:15 AM
Hijacking? A-FRIEND, know that any and all input you may have on this or a myriad of other subjects is welcome. I write a lot of my poetry in hopes of starting conversations, so if that is what you call hijacking, then let the banditry begin.

I will also say that although I am not in agreement with all here, I welcome their thoughts. For example, I greatly respect Bill for voicing what he felt he had to. This issue is not going to get resolved, truly solved, without a dialogue. It doesn't matter what Arizona passes, or what the Federal government does in the way of injuction. Real solutions are going to come by an honest hashing out of all aspects.
Title: Re: Lamentation for Arizona
Post by: elise on June 21, 2010, 04:52 PM
Wow Earl...how did I miss this question? 
Quote
Would you say this entire formerly Splash and now Tin Roof Alley community, reflects the general demographics of American communities at large?

hmmm...that's a toughie because it does leave out people who can't afford computers, etc.   But I think generally speaking, we probably all come from different
walks of life, backgrounds, etc, yes. 

Am anxious to see how this thread unfolds...
Title: Re: Lamentation for Arizona
Post by: cappy on July 29, 2010, 02:11 AM

Quote
Would you say this entire formerly Splash and now Tin Roof Alley community, reflects the general demographics of American communities at large?

No. I have found those that claim to speak for and represent how America feels but are only reflecting the talking points of highly agendized opinionist congregate as yes groups here. A smaller group of partakers seem to try to follow middle of the road and genuinely seek conciliation. An even smaller group are aggressive defenders of rights, exposers of wrong and are often group attacked for reflecting their own tactics back at them. There are minimal minorities that participate but I would have no idea of how many watch in the background.

There is minimal middle ground. This opinion is not meant to reflect upon the entire forum for there are far to many topics to generalize. But on social and political threads. . .
Title: Re: Lamentation for Arizona
Post by: A-FRIEND on May 25, 2013, 02:32 AM
A ruling has been handed down with regard to Arizona's sheriff Arpiao and his use of racial profiling against Hispanics. I'm not at all surprised at the ruling, but I am disappointed that no punishment is forth coming. I'd like to see some serious sanctions paid out for the flagrant, blatant racist abuse of his office against his own citizens.

To the inevitable boo-hooers over this ruling, no it wan't about the money. The citizens that sued made that point. This suit and its ruling was all about justice.

http://xfinity.comcast.net/articles/news-national/20130524/US--Arizona.Sheriff-Racial.Profiling/ (http://xfinity.comcast.net/articles/news-national/20130524/US--Arizona.Sheriff-Racial.Profiling/)

Who were the players in this lawsuit?

http://xfinity.comcast.net/articles/news-national/20130525/US--Arizona.Sheriff-Key.Figures/ (http://xfinity.comcast.net/articles/news-national/20130525/US--Arizona.Sheriff-Key.Figures/)
Title: Re: Lamentation for Arizona
Post by: cappy on May 26, 2013, 11:40 PM
Well it is more than evident that this man holds some unusual sway in Arizona. He reflects the paranoia of his kind and hate that is involved with them. s for the judge it sure has taken a long time for this issue, as plain as it was, to reach this type of adjudication. I don't think it is over yet with the law suits. He will eventually implode along with his ilk in time. The country is changing and angry old white men are running out of cover.
Title: Re: Lamentation for Arizona
Post by: A-FRIEND on May 27, 2013, 04:33 PM
You're right Cappy. There are a lot of lawsuits pending as a result of the racist application of Az laws. The nature of those laws were clear from its most fervent pusher , Russell Pierce, and Joe took the signal and ran with it. I hope Joe and Russell both get put in the same jail they so gleefully put others to feed their hate.  Yeah I know, that's not going to happen, but that would be what I call justice.
Title: Re: Lamentation for Arizona
Post by: A-FRIEND on June 17, 2013, 08:51 PM
Though justice moves much to slowly, there are times when America rights itself. Once again Arizona is in the spotlight, a spotlight of their making by the way. Should I say I told you so? Nah, but....

http://www.cnn.com/2013/06/17/justice/scotus-voter-registration-ruling/index.html?hpt=us_c2 (http://www.cnn.com/2013/06/17/justice/scotus-voter-registration-ruling/index.html?hpt=us_c2)