Author Topic: Lamentation for Arizona  (Read 17058 times)

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Offline noirjente

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Re: Lamentation for Arizona
« Reply #14 on: June 16, 2010, 01:43 PM »
I agree that this discussion should not be heated. But it is difficult when you know that this law is not merely about ending support of illegals by legal residents. And actually, who is supporting who? When you factor in the wealth created by their inexpensive labor the answer to that question is not as cut and dried as some would want it to be.

But my main problem with this law is on two levels and most are ignoring one of them. The law is racist and for that alone it should be repealed. But what must be realized is laws like this can be applied to anyone! I'll ask again . . .what does an illegal immigrant look like? We already have news stories from all over the country of folks being mistakenly held in jail or detained over unclear immigration status, so how is it going to be when this law goes into effect? And will it be used to arrest or detain someone the law is looking at in a completely different area but has no other "good" pretext? For example, as an Arizona detective, I wrongly think Elise may be the infamous "Sweet Tooth" woman serial killer (all of her victims are found covered in cotton candy), but I have nothing to pick her up on. Then, noting how she has some slavic features, I pick her up on SB 1070. I can detain her while I get warrants for her car and home, and the fact that I find her state issued ID in one of them is no problem as I send it to the lab to make sure it isnt a forgery.

The law can be used against anyone, not just illegal aliens from Mexico.

If they really wanted to stop immigration, here is a state law they could have passed.

1) Require that all social security numbers given by potential hires be run through the social security administration and/or the 3 credit bureaus or require valid state IDs that have been similarly vetted.

2) Punish businesses and individuals that hire illegals, not only by fines and license or permit suspensions and revocations, but by making those businesses and individuals who hire illegals legally liable for every penny-plus interest- of tax money or other public funds spent on the illegal and his (or her) dependants. This would include, among other things, money spent educating their children; emergency room visits that ultimately get charged off to the taxpayer; and (if applicable) welfare and food stamp payments made legally or illegally.

I think these two simple steps would stop illegal immigration in border states in its tracks. The people who come from Mexico illegally come because there are opportunities. Take away those opportunities and they will not come. If they know they must do things by the books in order to get at the opportunities, they will do that too. The vast majority of the people coming here are doing so to feed their families. Vilifying them is a mistake and will not stop the immigration as there are too many willing to take the risk. And SB 1070 gives "wrist slap" penalties to the businesses that are driving this immigration in the first place. As written, I see a lot of firms paying the small fines for the first offenses, then just simply closing shop only to reappear  under another license when the fines get steeper.                                                   

Offline Bill

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Re: Lamentation for Arizona
« Reply #15 on: June 16, 2010, 02:50 PM »
noirjente,

I can't respond in a personal message format to the personal message you sent me, because the message flashed that your inbox is full and so unable to receive any more personal messages.

So, let me confirm that yes, the poem in question does look much better in its original form, without the spacing.  I do not have the time to review it to see if you made other improvements.

In respect to the comment written after the poem, well, I'm not into group think.  I play one on one.  Always have.  Always will.

Regards,
Bill

Offline noirjente

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Re: Lamentation for Arizona
« Reply #16 on: June 16, 2010, 03:14 PM »
As I remember it, you said you were having trouble understanding the poem. The comment I made after the poem as originally penned was not about any "group think"; it was about the central premise of the poem and was offered to help increase your understanding of it. I am not here to tell you or anyone else what you must believe. But, if what I write makes some sense to you I only ask that you consider the position. That, I think, are how ideas are exchanged. 

Offline A-FRIEND

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Re: Lamentation for Arizona
« Reply #17 on: June 18, 2010, 11:00 PM »
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But then...SOMETHING needs to be done to be sure LEGAL people aren't supporting ILLEGAL people.  Aren't there gentler ways to do it?  Ideas?  Thoughts?  Opinions?

This doesn't need to be "heated"...but educational

Elise you are indeed a kind soul. Following your lead, lets make this just that...a teachable moment. I deliberately delayed my response to make a point. Before I do that, I need to get an answer to one question. Would you say this entire formerly Splash and now Tin Roof Alley community, reflects the general demographics of American communities at large?


**Note to norijente... I don't want to appear to be hijacking your topic. If there's any hint of impropriety please let me know.
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Offline noirjente

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Re: Lamentation for Arizona
« Reply #18 on: June 19, 2010, 01:15 AM »
Hijacking? A-FRIEND, know that any and all input you may have on this or a myriad of other subjects is welcome. I write a lot of my poetry in hopes of starting conversations, so if that is what you call hijacking, then let the banditry begin.

I will also say that although I am not in agreement with all here, I welcome their thoughts. For example, I greatly respect Bill for voicing what he felt he had to. This issue is not going to get resolved, truly solved, without a dialogue. It doesn't matter what Arizona passes, or what the Federal government does in the way of injuction. Real solutions are going to come by an honest hashing out of all aspects.

Offline elise

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Re: Lamentation for Arizona
« Reply #19 on: June 21, 2010, 04:52 PM »
Wow Earl...how did I miss this question? 
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Would you say this entire formerly Splash and now Tin Roof Alley community, reflects the general demographics of American communities at large?

hmmm...that's a toughie because it does leave out people who can't afford computers, etc.   But I think generally speaking, we probably all come from different
walks of life, backgrounds, etc, yes. 

Am anxious to see how this thread unfolds...
I felt it shelter to speak to you  ~Emily Dickinson

Offline cappy

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Re: Lamentation for Arizona
« Reply #20 on: July 29, 2010, 02:11 AM »

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Would you say this entire formerly Splash and now Tin Roof Alley community, reflects the general demographics of American communities at large?

No. I have found those that claim to speak for and represent how America feels but are only reflecting the talking points of highly agendized opinionist congregate as yes groups here. A smaller group of partakers seem to try to follow middle of the road and genuinely seek conciliation. An even smaller group are aggressive defenders of rights, exposers of wrong and are often group attacked for reflecting their own tactics back at them. There are minimal minorities that participate but I would have no idea of how many watch in the background.

There is minimal middle ground. This opinion is not meant to reflect upon the entire forum for there are far to many topics to generalize. But on social and political threads. . .

Offline A-FRIEND

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Re: Lamentation for Arizona
« Reply #21 on: May 25, 2013, 02:32 AM »
A ruling has been handed down with regard to Arizona's sheriff Arpiao and his use of racial profiling against Hispanics. I'm not at all surprised at the ruling, but I am disappointed that no punishment is forth coming. I'd like to see some serious sanctions paid out for the flagrant, blatant racist abuse of his office against his own citizens.

To the inevitable boo-hooers over this ruling, no it wan't about the money. The citizens that sued made that point. This suit and its ruling was all about justice.

http://xfinity.comcast.net/articles/news-national/20130524/US--Arizona.Sheriff-Racial.Profiling/

Who were the players in this lawsuit?

http://xfinity.comcast.net/articles/news-national/20130525/US--Arizona.Sheriff-Key.Figures/
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Offline cappy

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Re: Lamentation for Arizona
« Reply #22 on: May 26, 2013, 11:40 PM »
Well it is more than evident that this man holds some unusual sway in Arizona. He reflects the paranoia of his kind and hate that is involved with them. s for the judge it sure has taken a long time for this issue, as plain as it was, to reach this type of adjudication. I don't think it is over yet with the law suits. He will eventually implode along with his ilk in time. The country is changing and angry old white men are running out of cover.

Offline A-FRIEND

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Re: Lamentation for Arizona
« Reply #23 on: May 27, 2013, 04:33 PM »
You're right Cappy. There are a lot of lawsuits pending as a result of the racist application of Az laws. The nature of those laws were clear from its most fervent pusher , Russell Pierce, and Joe took the signal and ran with it. I hope Joe and Russell both get put in the same jail they so gleefully put others to feed their hate.  Yeah I know, that's not going to happen, but that would be what I call justice.
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Offline A-FRIEND

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Re: Lamentation for Arizona
« Reply #24 on: June 17, 2013, 08:51 PM »
Though justice moves much to slowly, there are times when America rights itself. Once again Arizona is in the spotlight, a spotlight of their making by the way. Should I say I told you so? Nah, but....

http://www.cnn.com/2013/06/17/justice/scotus-voter-registration-ruling/index.html?hpt=us_c2
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