Author Topic: Eros Statues Made of Satires, and How They Limit the Political Power of Cookies  (Read 10799 times)

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Offline cafeRg

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Re: making fun of each other
« Reply #28 on: June 20, 2012, 02:50 PM »


I just thought you would enjoy it. You're a singer too? Do you have any demos?


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Offline illiterati

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Re: making fun of each other
« Reply #29 on: June 20, 2012, 02:58 PM »

luckily for everyone, no demos.

Offline dublinsteve

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Re: making fun of each other
« Reply #30 on: June 20, 2012, 04:20 PM »
Quote
-- another thing about satire,

to me it seems like an appropriate device

only when directed at good writing? or writing with some authority? or claims about poetry with some influence?

(i.e., when directed at those who can defend themselves)


I am not sure what to make of that. So, are we to ferret out the weak, perhaps give them only bootlicking, brown-nosing, ass-patting praise, because they might run to the closet and cry? Then leave only satirical or negative comments to those who are strong enough to defend themselves?  My stance is that all who make their work available for the public to read are equal. There will be excellent work by the weak and the strong. They get truly deserved bootlicks. There will be work that shows promise, by the weak and the strong. They deserve well place ass kicks to get them moving in a different direction (from many readers who will send them in many directions). There will be dog turds disguised as writing, by both the weak and the strong. They deserve the harshest of response. It is up to them to be impatiens or saguaro when facing the heat. Strength of character is irrelevant, even if determined. Quality, or lack of, in the writing is all that matters.

Offline dublinsteve

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Re: making fun of each other
« Reply #31 on: June 20, 2012, 04:23 PM »
So, Rg, are you saying I am either horny or juvenile??

Offline illiterati

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Re: making fun of each other
« Reply #32 on: June 20, 2012, 04:41 PM »
steve - i have to respectfully but strongly disagree. you don't correct a toddler in the same way you correct a teenager. not all--but most--neophytes are relatively flexible and receptive to feedback. they require very little force to start making adjustments and moving their practice in different directions. come down like a bomb on that kind of person, and you're often shutting down the very motivation that could have driven them to improve. use the amount of force that's necessary, no more.

whereas those who are established often become quite sure of themselves, and will only budge in response to greater force. such as mockery.

yes, both the weak and the strong need a kick in the ass, sometimes. but again, the amount of force that will be experienced as "a kick in the ass" varies from person to person, and should be adjusted accordingly.

-matt

p. s.: i'd also suggest this as another quality of constructive satire:

it has the potential to be productive when and only when less pointed forms of address will not or have not worked.

Offline cafeRg

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Re: making fun of each other
« Reply #33 on: June 20, 2012, 06:02 PM »


Hi Steve ..no. I was just practicing my Don Rickles ..we're cool

---------------

Critics come in many different flavors and styles, as does poets. When we write a poem we are the poet. When we critique a poem we become a teacher or mentor. The poem you are critiquing should tell you the level of the poet you're dealing with. So you should be flexible enough to mentor from that level, as a starting point. Don't wanna help the neophyte? Then don't take on the role of that poets mentor. We should be encouraging and motivating. Not act like know-it-all bullies, we don't have time for your dumbass writing.

A good poet is happy to share their tips and techniques. Let's say you're an expert poet and you want some help with a new poem. The critic comes in, they're an expert to, and tells you your work is a piece of garbage. How would that make you feel? It doesn't matter if you're an expert or a newbie, both deserve respect, some useful direction and encouragement.

The old adage: the student is only as good as the teacher. How's your students doing?





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Offline seraph

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Re: making fun of each other
« Reply #34 on: June 20, 2012, 06:31 PM »
illiterati,

I shall put my head in the noose. I do believe that there are some who critique with a great deal of sarcasm that is not there to help the poet, but is only posted to allow the critic to exude some sort of smug  superiority. I have experienced it and I have seen it. When that happens the gloves are off and retorts or comeuppance is indeed a tool to keep the tools more honest and a bit less caustic. One can critique with style or one can critic with acid. Acid should be neutralized, deservedly so. The relationship goes both ways and when I feel attacked or an attempt is made to make me feel stupid I do respond and I make no apologies.

seraph


Offline illiterati

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Re: making fun of each other
« Reply #35 on: June 20, 2012, 08:05 PM »
Rg - we're in complete agreement,

except for the point that you, seraph, have expressed more eloquently (and definitely more succinctly) than I could have hoped to.

Much bluntness, even insensitivity, can be forgiven, if it appears that the critich's goal was to help the writer grow.

But if it looks like the critic is more concerned with beating his or her chest...

I don't know. That's why satire exists.

Offline seraph

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Re: making fun of each other
« Reply #36 on: June 20, 2012, 09:10 PM »
Intent is everything my friend.

seraph

Offline cafeRg

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Re: making fun of each other
« Reply #37 on: June 21, 2012, 09:07 AM »

Matt ..When is it ok to be insensitive? You mean like tough love?






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Offline illiterati

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Re: making fun of each other
« Reply #38 on: June 21, 2012, 09:31 AM »
Rg-

In the post quoted below, you outline a set of standards that make community of mutual benefit possible.

These are the standards (mutual respect, constructive criticism, goodwill) that create a space for dialogue.

So that's to say, I'm in complete agreement with the standards of a critical / poetic community--or for any community of public discourse--that you outline above.

EXCEPT FOR:

the kind of circumstance which seraph was pointing out: when a member of a community appears to be taking advantage of its standards by using the space they create for dialogue in order to beef up his or her own authority, influence, or whatever. In other words, when it appears that a critter is only interested in trashing poems, and not at all in the poem or poet itself and the ways it might be possible for them to improve.

Goodwill. So the (unspoken) question seraph responds to is, "How do you police or enforce those standards of community? What forms of dialogue exist that can reinforce those boundaries without brute force, without stepping outside of the space for dialogue?" (satire?)

With the "insensitivity" thing, I was just suggesting that, if a member of the community appears to be sincerely trying to work within those standards, his or her missteps or offenses are part of the process. Nothing to worry about. For example, in this community, if a critter comes down hard on a poem--maybe even too hard, or harder than necessary--but it appears that his or her intent was to help the poem and poet, and that his or her motivation was to assist the poem and help it grow, then the critter's harshness is in agreement with your standards of community. 

(oh seraph - yours was definitely more succinct. i need you as a wingman.)



Hi Steve ..no. I was just practicing my Don Rickles ..we're cool

---------------

Critics come in many different flavors and styles, as does poets. When we write a poem we are the poet. When we critique a poem we become a teacher or mentor. The poem you are critiquing should tell you the level of the poet you're dealing with. So you should be flexible enough to mentor from that level, as a starting point. Don't wanna help the neophyte? Then don't take on the role of that poets mentor. We should be encouraging and motivating. Not act like know-it-all bullies, we don't have time for your dumbass writing.

A good poet is happy to share their tips and techniques. Let's say you're an expert poet and you want some help with a new poem. The critic comes in, they're an expert to, and tells you your work is a piece of garbage. How would that make you feel? It doesn't matter if you're an expert or a newbie, both deserve respect, some useful direction and encouragement.

The old adage: the student is only as good as the teacher. How's your students doing?

Offline illiterati

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Re: making fun of each other
« Reply #39 on: June 21, 2012, 09:51 AM »

at least at this moment, i think the laurel crown for most contributions to the debate goes to rg:




apollo's head is a freebie - comes with the garland.

-matt

p. s. don't store that thing any place warm or humid -  it's made entirely out of processed turkey meat.


Offline cafeRg

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Re: making fun of each other
« Reply #40 on: June 21, 2012, 10:09 AM »


so i get the ..turkey award? ..What about Eros ..what is he made out of?


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Offline dublinsteve

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Re: making fun of each other
« Reply #41 on: June 21, 2012, 10:13 AM »
Good luck, if your intent is to elect a Poetry Sheriff, who in turn puts together a poetry posse. Can't be done. Criticizing poetry is as old as language, because it is misunderstood. What might give you a wet spot on the front side might give me a lumpy spot in the back. And people will say what they will about what they like or don't like. When you try to control it, you end up with either no forum, or, at best, a land of lily-livered, wimpy backslappers falling in love with every piece of garbage that is posted. I would say that over 90 percent of all posts in poetry forums are by individuals who have not one atom of writing ability. They should know that. If they take that info to heart and genuinely seek to improve their creative side, wonderful. If not, then find that closet door and go have a good cry.