Author Topic: Eros Statues Made of Satires, and How They Limit the Political Power of Cookies  (Read 10436 times)

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Offline illiterati

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1) Satire, though barbed, is a form of personal regard--

--In the same way that detailed critique—even if negative—shows time and effort on a poem’s behalf, a poem addressed to an individual’s position or statements—even as satire—demonstrates regard and a degree of respect. If one is acceptable, why not the other?


2) --and creative discourse.

--Name a movement or period in poetry—any movement or period—and you’ll find poems in which poets make fun of each other, their verse, philosophies of poetry, and opposing camps. That’s one of the ways it works. Rappers know this, just watch Eight Mile. SNL knows this very well, particularly around election time.

So what are your thoughts on poems that tease or mock?

Offline cafeRg

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Re: making fun of each other
« Reply #1 on: June 19, 2012, 10:36 AM »
If you turned on SNL you expect satire and parody. Who is to say Mega Stars aren't offended? Backstage they complain or display anger a lot. Creative people are emotional and sensitive about their work. Take the AX, how many times has a poet posted a poem and exhibited disdain for the critics remarks.

Members have written me that so and so just posted a poem or comment directed at them, when indeed it was not. To be blindsided by mockery is rarely funny to the target person, though everyone else will laugh. What seems funny to one person may not be funny to the next. I have seen post where the poster was mocking them self and others thought they were being serious.

I don't see where having open season for parody would be productive. This isn't to say in certain circumstances, a cute remark might find a place. But open season? Should we have a disclaimer - Caution: Post at your own risk. Don Rickles wanna-be's are hungry?
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Offline Kay

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Re: making fun of each other
« Reply #2 on: June 19, 2012, 03:15 PM »
Matt,

That is an intersting question. Anyone who has posted in forums for any time at all has witnessed something like this.

Quote
So what are your thoughts on poems that tease or mock?

I can only answer for myself, Matt. I'm old school. I believe in respect.
I know some find this type of satire funny but if its directed at someone, then someone
is hurting and that's not cool in my book. Anyway,l that's my thoughts.

Offline illiterati

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Re: making fun of each other
« Reply #3 on: June 19, 2012, 05:24 PM »

rg and kay -

you are both right in claiming that in most social contexts, including this current online forum, satire as a form of dialogue will not work. and that if it's resulting in hurt feelings, something has broken down in the process.

but i'm having a hard time thinking of an influential cultural movement in which satire wasn't an important form of dialogue.

so let's grant something like, "under most conditions, satire either can't be practiced in a way that's socially productive, or interpreted in a way that's socially productive."

granting that, i guess my question isn't, "why can't we make fun of each other here, in these conditions, where satire will be practiced and interpreted as destructive?" but rather, "what are the conditions that make it possible to practice and interpret satire as a form of productive dialogue?"

take this poem below:

Quote
At least we both know how shitty the world is. You [Ginsberg] wearing a
      beard as a mask to disguise it. I wearing my tired smile. I
      don’t see how you do it. One hundred thousand university
      students marching with you. Toward
A necessity which is not love but is a name.
King of the May. A title not chosen for dancing. The police
Civil but obstinate. If they’d attacked
The kind of love (not sex but love), you gave the one hundred
   thousand students I’d have been very glad. And loved the
   policemen. Why
Fight the combine of your heart and my heart or anybody’s
   heart. People are starving.

                        [Jack Spicer’s final poem]


the poem is a more open form of critique than satire, but the principle is the same. the poem criticizes ginsberg, his poems, and in general the poetics of public identity ("bearded image") that ginsberg constructs through his poems.

if the conditions weren't in place to make this productive, then ginsberg would get hurt feelings and either shut down or take it to him personally. but the poem isn't personal--it's a dialogue that addresses ginsbeg's poetics. ginsberg can respond by defending and elaborating his own position, or by modifying it a little bit, acknowledging the critique.

i don't feel like i'm making my point very clear. but the main thing is that i do see conditions elsewhere in history or culture that make productive satire possible, that turn it into a back-and-forth. what could make it so elsewhere?








Offline cafeRg

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Re: making fun of each other
« Reply #4 on: June 19, 2012, 06:15 PM »


Maybe I'm not understanding. Do you want to take a poem posted here in the Alley and use satire as a form of critique? If so, choose any one of my poems and show me an example. Or do want to write a poetic response to Jack Spicer or other Mega Poet? Or a response to an Alley Poet? Hit me with your best shot ..lol..

To create a poem as a poetic response, wouldn't the original poem govern the theme of the response? It wouldn't necessary be a satire. Take my poem The Art of Critique, supposedly the narrator is attacking the critic. I suppose the critic could respond back (in the same nature) to me.  What if I wrote a poem about a lover, I suppose a lover could respond back. Of course before responding good judgement would need to be exercised.

Anyhow, using me and or a poem or two of mine and show how that would be played out?

BTW, did Ginsberg respond back to Jack?  How do you know Allen wasn't hurt? I'd like to see Ginsberg's response if there is one? Also keep in mind both are Mega Poet's and were popular public figures. And that type rivalry is common practice among the popular. Doesn't mean people aren't getting hurt.
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Offline illiterati

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Re: making fun of each other
« Reply #5 on: June 19, 2012, 06:41 PM »
i'm curious about how disagreements become productive, engines for generating poems and developing poetic style.

i don't want to satirize anything in particular, certainly not your poems.

but here's an example in which i (unsuccessfully) attempted to respond to mojave:

http://www.tinroofalleypoets.org/poetry_boards/index.php/topic,16872.0.html

from the title, "objective images," "devoid of sentiment," and "purple [writing]" are each quotations or paraphrases of claims mojave made about poetry.

so i took those (as universal claims) to their most absurd conclusions, of which the poem's style is supposed to be an example.

not mean or pointed. not even denying that mojave was right.

but responding to a series of claims in a way that (attempted but failed to) throw them back into his corner, either to clarify and develop further, or modify slightly, or develop into a counter-critique.

back-and-forth.





Offline cafeRg

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Re: making fun of each other
« Reply #6 on: June 19, 2012, 07:08 PM »

I'm sorry Matt, but I am confused. I assume the title of this thread is the basis of this thread. What does your dialog with Mojave have to do with this thread. Maybe answering my question in my previous post would help me understand?





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Offline illiterati

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Re: making fun of each other
« Reply #7 on: June 19, 2012, 07:23 PM »

i'm confused too. i linked the mojave thing in response to your request for an example. i was satirizing some of his claims in that poem.

yes, your "the art of critique" is a good example. if it were addressed to someone or something in particular.

ginsberg didn't respond directly. spicer died shortly after writing the poem.



Offline cafeRg

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Re: making fun of each other
« Reply #8 on: June 19, 2012, 07:39 PM »

Well I would have to see his poem to. All I see is you as the topic starter. Is a split form another poem? What did Mojave do or not do?

Every critic has their style. Are you making fun of him?




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Offline illiterati

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Re: making fun of each other
« Reply #9 on: June 19, 2012, 07:54 PM »

sure, the poem satirized some claims he had made in critique.

to return to this idea:
Quote
To create a poem as a poetic response, wouldn't the original poem govern the theme of the response?


yes, the poem in which i "make fun" of some of his claims is shaped by those claims. he claims poems need to be devoid of sentiment, grounded in objective images, and so on. and my poem is meant as a parody of those claims.

so it's a direct engagement with his ideas and poetics, it does something with them, is shaped by them, responds to them directly.

but if the conditions aren't there for satire / parody / making fun to be constructive, then it becomes either an occasion for offense, or a dead end (as in the present example).

whereas i'm seeing many examples of "Mega Poets" who use it as an occasion for back and forth.

and i'm wondering what makes that possible.

Offline illiterati

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Re: making fun of each other
« Reply #10 on: June 19, 2012, 07:57 PM »

or just in general i'm curious about the things that make all kinds of dialogue and direct engagement, mutual influence, possible.

for example, when you did the "ragweed remix" - in direct dialogue.

or i was trying address marxistglue directly by making a bunch of variations on his name.

Offline cafeRg

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Re: making fun of each other
« Reply #11 on: June 19, 2012, 08:38 PM »


Like I said each critic has their style. If this example is about a poem you wrote and he commented on, I would say then whatever dialog is between the poet (you) and the critic (him) then have at it. If it was a poem he commented on another poets poem, then his comments are between him and that poet.

Let's say Poet A post a poem. Mojave gives his thoughts to the poem. And you give your thoughts to the poem. Those response may contradict each other but that is for Poet A to decide. If two critics want to critic each other, you can do that by either inviting a critic (or group) into an open discussion or by PM. The workshop is about a poet getting his poem honed not about two critics critiquing each other.

If you see something another critic or member is saying and its hurtful, then I would say bring it up with me and the staff.

I don't really know why i did a shortie on Ragweed, maybe it was on my mind and I needed a poem a day ..lol.. it wasn't a satire or a mock, it was more of a compliment to you. As for exquisite corpse and marxist, has someone said something to you about it? I thought we were just doing a style of poetry in a group sense.

I still don't know what any of this has to do making fun of each other? Other than what I have already said in regards to it. I did want to add, if you want to make fun or a poetic response, ask them if its OK. But do consider just any poem, even asking them may hurt them. Have a productive reason for a poetic response.

If this is about not getting others involved in a discussion, welcome to the club ..lol.. I'm the loneliest poet in the Alley.






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Offline Kay

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Re: making fun of each other
« Reply #12 on: June 19, 2012, 08:49 PM »
Matt, in reading through, I too am not knowing what it is you are trying to accomplish but I think maybe as Rg said, "discussion" , but I know you have a ton more energy than I do to even try.  :rose

Offline Kay

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Re: making fun of each other
« Reply #13 on: June 19, 2012, 08:59 PM »
Quote
If this is about not getting others involved in a discussion, welcome to the club ..lol.. I'm the loneliest poet in the Alley.

aw, you need chocolate chip cookies. :wine :dblu