Author Topic: Fall Out  (Read 4119 times)

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Offline EpylepticTrout

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Fall Out
« on: August 23, 2008, 11:13 PM »
Fall Out

Sensory tender
Violent neon colors
Razor autumn chords

Onion paper and
Taffeta promises of
Butterscotch thick winds

Offline EpylepticTrout

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Re: Fall Out
« Reply #1 on: August 23, 2008, 11:16 PM »
To the viewing population,


Haiku is new to me. My soul editor and I agreed that I should try to write in some traditional forms in order to discipline my poetry. So....although this is not the AX please feel free to have a slice.


Trout

Offline Mystic1

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Re: Fall Out
« Reply #2 on: August 24, 2008, 04:06 AM »
Well, if you want to punish your poetry, haiku is certainly the place to do that.
I can't say if this is haiku, as I am no expert on the subject.
For an expert opinion please consult with Master Fragments in that regard.
I will say this:

images are sharp
definite potential here
good first endeavor

The above, of course, is not true - authentic haiku.
In much the same way as my piece ‘Playwright,’ is haiku in form only, so is this one.
And, much as I stated before of ‘Playwright,’ the above is not literal haiku.
It has none of the characteristics of actual haiku.
I can speak of this piece in such a manner as I never intended it to be literal haiku.

As I said of ‘Fall Out,’ I do not know if it is or is not haiku.
What I do know is, I like your approach and I am glad you’ve delved into new waters.

I leave you the following from my lengthy discussion with Master Fragments on the subject of  the most ancient and revered haiku masters. (He’s the old guy in the corner there, proudly displaying his Masters of Fine Arts degree.}

So saith Master Frags (As he is affectionately known to his students.) I quote:

‘You will find, reading the masters, that they identify when and sometimes where their piece was written.
Over the translations of the masters words (especially into English, which is not a good match.)
You will find key words that identify the season. But you will also find poor translations.
This 5/7/5 thing is an English Translation Myth. Most haiku is meant to be written in a straight line.

Traditional authentic haiku is very difficult to write. Because it has to meet all the rules.
Haiku is one of the hardest disciplines that has feeling but with no (like or as) and it has to be easily understood. Like all great poems a good haiku has to have the meter to make it work.

Something I’ve tried to incorporate into my teaching haiku over the years is a statement Basho made:
(Basho being one of  those dead masters I spoke of earlier.)

‘You (the haiku writer) are the conduit
Between the object you see
and what the reader of the haiku feels.’

I want to share an article I find helpful to those starting down the difficult road‘- End quote.


BECOMING A HAIKU POET

by Michael Dylan Welch

When I first tried writing haiku, my attempts were based on very limited information. The quality and effectiveness was poor as a result. My schoolteachers meant well, but often presented only a superficial and sometimes misguided notion of haiku. If you're new to haiku, you may be in the same situation--without knowing it. While too much information can also impede the poetic impulse, with haiku, as with other genres of poetry, it's worthwhile to move beyond superficialities to gain a more substantial knowledge of the genre. So what is haiku, and how does one become a haiku poet?
The most important characteristic of haiku is how it conveys, through implication and suggestion, a moment of keen perception and perhaps insight into nature or human nature. Haiku does not state this insight, however, but implies it. In the last hundred years--in Japanese and English-language haiku--implication has been achieved most successfully through the use of objective imagery. This means you avoid words that interpret what you experience, such as saying something is "beautiful" or "mysterious," and stick to words that objectively convey the facts of what you see, hear, smell, taste, and touch. Instead of writing about your reactions to stimuli, in a good haiku you write about those things that cause your reactions. This way your readers can experience the same feelings you felt, without your having to explain them.


spring breeze--
the pull of her hand
as we near the pet store

--Michael Dylan Welch, Sammamish, Washington

A haiku also centers structurally on a pause or caesura ("kire" in Japanese). By juxtaposing two elements or parts (with one of the elements spanning over two of the poem's three lines), the two parts create a spark of energy, like the gap in a spark plug. The two elements of a good haiku may seem unrelated at first glance, but if the reader lingers on them sufficiently, he or she may notice a reverberation. When you realize the connection between the two parts (sometimes called an "internal comparison"), you have a "spark" of realization, an "aha" moment. As a writer of haiku, it's your job to allow the poem to have that spark--and not to spell it out for the reader. This is perhaps the most difficult thing to do with haiku, as well as its most important--yet often least understood--structural characteristic.

new moon . . .
curve of the steeple bell
in winter twilight

--Ebba Story, San Francisco, California

Another key strategy in haiku is the seasonal reference. Traditional Japanese haiku use a season word ("kigo") to anchor the poem in time and to allude to other poems that use the same reference. While a formalized set of season words has yet to fully evolve in English-language haiku, many seasonal references are intuitive, and are worth including in your haiku. A simple example would be "snow" to indicate winter, or "frog" to indicate spring. You could name the season also, but the best season words are more subtle than that. Some terms can be troublesome, as in "dry grass," which may mean winter in some places (such as in New Jersey) but summer in other places (such as California). As you begin to learn haiku that are well known in English, you will be able to allude to or understand allusions to other haiku (including Japanese haiku). It's important, with season words, to usually use just one in each haiku (unless one clearly dominates another). As you become more experienced with haiku, you'll discover that words often have seasonal associations to them that you might not have been conscious of before. You can maximize the effect of these words by using them carefully in your haiku.

Mother's scarf
slides from my shoulder--
wild violets

--Peggy Willis Lyles, Tucker, Georgia

Speaking of writing carefully, haiku is often thought of as the most compressed poem in the world. This doesn't just mean it's the briefest, but that it packs a lot more into its scant three lines than you might have in other poems or prose. This is thanks to the techniques I've already described. With objectivity, the images reverberate for themselves, opening up for the reader rather than being closed down by the use of subjective explanation. With a caesura, you create energy through the juxtaposition between the two elements, which may be a background or context, juxtaposed with a foreground or focus. And with a season word, you connect the poem to nature and time and other poetry. Above all, a haiku mysteriously creates an emotional impression, a whole that is often much greater than the sum of its parts.

gone from the woods
the bird I knew
by song alone

--Paul O. Williams, Belmont, California

On a practical note, haiku never have titles, almost never rhyme, and seldom use overt metaphor and simile. The reasoning for this is that these devices often make the reader more aware of the words than their meaning. Haiku, as Jack Kerouac once said, should be as simple as porridge. Use direct and simple language. Avoid long, conceptual, Latinate words. And note, too, that the word "haiku" is both singular and plural (thus one doesn't say "haikus," even though Kerouac did to rhyme with "blues").

withering wind
the fence-builder pulls a nail
from his lips

--Mark Brooks, Austin, Texas

You may have noticed that thus far I've said almost nothing about form in haiku. That's because form is not nearly as important as the other strategies I've covered. Form, in fact, is the most misunderstood aspect of haiku. Haiku is frequently mistaught in schools, and many textbooks and dictionary definitions are superficial and sometimes even misguided. Many textbooks are simply out of date, and haiku is best understood as a genre of poetry, not a form. Haiku in Japan are arranged in a single vertical line, and traditionally (meaning, not always) have three parts of 5, 7, and then 5 Japanese sound symbols (which are not the same as syllables). Many English-language textbooks say that haiku in English should be 5-7-5 syllables. This assertion exhibits a gross misunderstanding of the differences between Japanese and English syllables and how the languages differ. Indeed, the vast bulk of serious haiku written in English are usually shorter than 17 syllables, and choose to follow or apply a free or organic form rather than an arbitrary external syllable count that hasn't proved effective or appropriate in the English language. This fact may come as a surprise to many poets who are new to haiku (or even some who think they aren't that new to it), but it's worth reviewing books such as Cor van den Heuvel's The Haiku Anthology (Norton, 1999) and



William J. Higginson's The Haiku Handbook (Kodansha, 1989) to see examples and to understand why haiku in English is best written without a slavish adherence to a set syllabic form.

mime
lifting
fog

--Jerry Kilbride, Sacramento, California

When you write your haiku, focus on perceptions and images. Be aware of the seasons and what you perceive through your five senses. Write about your perceptions objectively. Strive to master the understanding of what is objective and subjective in what you write. Learn the difference between description and inference, so your poem can avoid doing any inferring for the reader; instead, let the reader infer ideas and connections from the carefully juxtaposed objective descriptions you present. With this focus, relying on the perceptions you receive through your five senses, and using the technique of juxtaposition, you can write excellent haiku that are far more effective than the pseudo-haiku that parade around e-mail in-boxes making light of some subject or another--or lots of other pseudo-haiku that the writers don't even realize is not really haiku. With the proper haiku fundamentals in mind, you can write haiku that rise above the superficial understandings that are commonly presented or believed about haiku. Using the more advanced techniques, which you can learn the basics of quickly, but which can take a lifetime to master, you can write excellent haiku. It isn't hard to write haiku that are far more effective than lesser attempts that may fit the popular misperception of haiku merely as a 5-7-5 poem, but that lack many of the other techniques that are much more vital to haiku than a superficial external structure. Search for the deeper form of haiku--the keen perceptions that are presented objectively through the use of juxtaposition. Read a lot of good haiku to see what makes them work. Observe life around you closely and see freshly and authentically so that you may imply life's little epiphanies effectively. Let the "aha" moments of life be implied by your carefully chosen words describing nature and human nature. Then you, too, will become a haiku poet.

meteor shower . . .
a gentle wave
wets our sandals

--Michael Dylan Welch, Sammamish, Washington

The full discussion and Master Fragments indepth critique of one of my own haiku, may be found here:  'The Art Of Poetry Critique ~ Discuss Poetry Past And Present In the thread Favorite Poem At The Moment.
It begins about halfway down the first page and continues a bit on the second page.
Just keep scrolling until you see my post.

You may also wish to view this site:

http://www.ahapoetry.com/haiku.htm

Which I find most enlightening on the subject at hand.

I will leave you then with another quote from the Most Honorable Basho:

'First, one must learn the rules;
then forget them.'

And a quote I find inspiring for any attempt at whatever style of poetry.

Master Yoda to Luke Skywalker:

'Do, or do not do. There is no try.'

Don't know if the lil green dude ever composed haiku, but it is a good philosophy, none the less.

Hope this has helped guide you in your foray into the inner workings of haiku.  :blusmoke






I believe in making the world safe for our children, but not for our children's children, because I don't think children should be having sex.

Offline EpylepticTrout

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Re: Fall Out
« Reply #3 on: August 24, 2008, 08:00 AM »
Thank you Mystic for the comments and info. Haiku seems now to be so inbred with iterations and permutations that I get confused.  I do find it fascinating.

I will also attempt some pieces with strict meter and even yes rhyme. The idea is for me to sort of tame the wild trout. Distill my writing into more coherent thoughts and images so that when I do unleash my dementia it at least has some sort of underlying  reason for living. Can poims live? After all a poim is not a poim unless its a potato. (did I say that right?). Screw it..... A horse is a horse of course, of course....I wonder if Schopenhauer wrote potatos....is potato scrimshaw the very next craze......stay tuned to this Bat Channel kiddies....POW.

I'm sure this poim is not strict Haiku, hopefully it stands up on its own, even if horribly mutated, irradiated, genetically altered...thank god poims cant breed.

Mr. Potato Trout


witt

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Re: Fall Out
« Reply #4 on: August 24, 2008, 08:03 AM »
Good job, O Gilled One. You do have some vivid images.

Thanks, Mystic for your input. I'll have to read your examples more closely. I can use all the help that I can get, too.

Since we are in the regular Haiku section, perhaps you could do away with the inforced 5-7-5 rules here and just stick with the images. Chop it down to only the important words. I'll let you do it by yourself and see what you come up with.

Offline EpylepticTrout

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Re: Fall Out
« Reply #5 on: August 24, 2008, 08:16 AM »
Thank you as always Witt. I hope you will find me in the other pools as well and lend me your sharp insight. Dont hold back, no matter where I post, please.

I guess I'm not sure how to chop this fella any further, feel free to give example if you are so inclined.

Question: If I drop the 5-7-5 should I stay with 17 syllables? I know the concept of syllables doesnt translate accurately into English from the Japanese pov. Perhaps the question answers itself by being unanswerable. But hey, I got my toe in the water.

Trout

witt

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Re: Fall Out
« Reply #6 on: August 24, 2008, 08:27 AM »
By the way, I failed to mention the wonderful play on words with the title!

Here's how I read it.

Fall Out

Sensory tender
Violent neon colors
Razor autumn chords

Onion paper
Taffeta promises
Thick butterscotch winds

Whatcha think?

Offline EpylepticTrout

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Re: Fall Out
« Reply #7 on: August 24, 2008, 08:39 AM »
Thanks again Witt! My gal contributed the title. I tried to get her to take credit......a sort of Paul/Linda thing.....She decided she wanted no credit for Beatles drug poims though...sigh

Can a Trout be a Beatle?


me

Offline Mystic1

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Re: Fall Out
« Reply #8 on: August 24, 2008, 02:13 PM »
Hey, it could have been worse. Your Paul/Linda could have mutated into a
John/Yoko sorta thing. Then you might have become

Assassinated Trout bleeding to death in Central Pond.

Then of course she would be a member of Sgt. Trout's Lonely Hearts Club Band.

Sgt, Trout...of the Yellow Trout Marines I expect?

I'll bet she's a big fan of Trout's Naked Album. Don't even Ask Me Why I said that.
It was out of line and you don't have to answer.  ;D Unless you want to.

No, nevermind, just Let It Be...

Okay, enough with the Beatles refrences...  This is D.J. Mystic and I am OUTTA here. .
Comin' up next for your listening enjoyment...
the smooth Jazz  sounds of Scaleless Trout.   :blusmoke
I believe in making the world safe for our children, but not for our children's children, because I don't think children should be having sex.

Offline EpylepticTrout

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Re: Fall Out
« Reply #9 on: August 25, 2008, 05:38 PM »
Well, I know I have some witty Beatle repartee around here somewhere. I must have left it on the hill so I got nothing, except.....

Look into a glass onion.....



Trout #9

Offline Mystic1

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Re: Fall Out
« Reply #10 on: August 26, 2008, 06:33 PM »
glass onion reveals
these imagined filaments
a broken socket

inner connection
lies in shattered pieces now
menace to my mind

vicious sharp edges
twisted words beyond repair
forgotten moment

:blusmoke


I believe in making the world safe for our children, but not for our children's children, because I don't think children should be having sex.

Offline EpylepticTrout

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Re: Fall Out
« Reply #11 on: August 26, 2008, 07:58 PM »
NICE!   Beatles Haiku Tag?


I Me Mine

Offline EpylepticTrout

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Re: Fall Out
« Reply #12 on: August 26, 2008, 08:41 PM »
phrase, lyric, title, word


The organ grinder
Hides except his cup monkey
screams on his shoulder


Offline Mystic1

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Re: Fall Out
« Reply #13 on: August 27, 2008, 02:05 AM »
Man, this was tough...but I think I've got it. 
This song just proves to me that at least one,
if not all the band members were burnin' rope -
or drinkin' the Kool Aid.   ;D


drenched in English rain
we danced the penguin juba
sang Hare Krishna

I am the eggman
you've been a naughtly lil girl
we became walrus

Lucy in the sky
my pornographic princess
dripped yellow custard
 :blusmoke
I believe in making the world safe for our children, but not for our children's children, because I don't think children should be having sex.